Hello All

Discussion in 'Φ v.3 The GREAT AWAKENING' started by david, Jul 8, 2016.

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  1. Rose

    Rose InPHInet Rose Φ Administrator

    In my opinion the cause of monopolies is all consuming greed and lack of concern for others, a sociopathic trait. Would not your plan of getting rid of sociopaths in power, get rid of the cause of monopolies? If not, non-sociopathic legistators could trustbust again from inside the system. Don't forget no system will ever be trouble free with greedy individuals in existence.
  2. Rose

    Rose InPHInet Rose Φ Administrator

    ok. After this last post, ! will express no further opinions about any interactions between Chico and David. I would suggest starting an "anything goes" thread in Forum Warriors, but truthfully, I have little hope even that would solve this apparent longstanding grudge match. Perhaps ignoring is the only solution?
  3. david

    david Member

    Rose I don't know why Doo Doo thinks me wanting to introduce my son's video revolves around him...Sociopaths often do think every act is to discredit them....but in any case I will get you the file. I am introducing the film because it is a great piece and it deals with the topic at hand. Doo doo should like it actually... a shame he has already decided that it is there to shame him...I would never compare him to my 18 year old! My eighteen year old is too smart for that! Just kidding! Will get you the film and you will see why it makes sense for inclusion in this discussion regarding our overlords.
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  4. david

    david Member

    Actually I was ignoring you lol. Ahhh the inevitable moment where my dear friend Chickadoo has his feewings hurted because someone is unaffected by his posts. and then.... the person becomes a mean vile sociopath....ahhhh! But Chick is right!!! they are all around those sociopaths! insulting the sock puppet boys down at United... chick, chick and chick...the four members in good standing, in government, in the walls listening...everywhere. But my dear friend Chickadoo probably forgot that I already declared myself a sociopath....a mean, evil, ruthless, power hungry one.... I guess my tendencies got the best of me, insulting my dear friend...can I just abreviate to doo doo? I ignored you to control your behavior, a pox on my ancestors...then again I guess if I didn't ignore you I would also be controlling your behavior? lol poor doo doo, quite the simp really.

    You tend to want confirmation bias but, you don't even really know what a sociopath is yet doo doo, that would be a good start, take it from your good friend. you have been calling people sociopaths for how long? the problem with confirmation bias is that there is no alternative...You are not capable of making a distinction between someone whom you dislike, or think about a certain way, and a sociopath dear doo doo. Thats why your comments tend to be so annoying after a while. You basically simply want a world where there is you, and those who agree with you...and the mean nasty sociopaths.

    Dear doo doo so sorry to say most of us have figured out that the world does not work that way...usually around our 5th birthday actually. Sorry that I ignored you for a post, hope it was not traumatic, obviously you felt violated by this and need my attention so here I am doo doo what can I do for you?

    Culture, education, propoganda are tools that people use and some people are sociopaths. Does that help? You don't need me to denigrate you doo doo you do a fine job yourself. Anyhow I am here for you.

    That mean sociopath
  5. Rose

    Rose InPHInet Rose Φ Administrator

    This is splitting hairs, Chico. When I have time to watch one of his videos again, I will document. I am mostly recalling what I took away from the original Zietgeist and reading the material Gemma just presented. But, basically, prefacing information with a comment like no human begin can possibly think objectively equates with "you are getting sleepy, very very sleepy, you don't need to pay complete attention to what I am saying, you will believe this anyway, etc etc. Take a look at the structure of his rhetoric.
  6. Chicodoodoo

    Chicodoodoo Truth-seeker

    That is the plausible deniability aspect to the game David is playing here. I already knew that was coming, but I expected it from David rather than you. But that simply illustrates how well the plausible deniability aspect works when it is properly constructed. Those not aware of the game will run with it in defense of the game-player, and that is the intent.

    Yes, but it was set up by David who introduced the comparison of me to his young son. There was no reason to bring his son into the discussion. It was a deliberate ploy by David done to play on our emapthy. As a highly empathetic person, you picked up on it right away with great sympathy. This is an example of where your empathy, while normally highly admirable, is a severe weakness in the company of a skilled manipulator.

    You might recall Shadowself doing the same thing when she introduced her deceased son into the discussion. Do you remember how you reacted to that, and how I reacted to that, and how different those reactions were?

    Quite right. It is all documented at United People, where David was dsimon3387, but I understand it would be far too tedious to try to track the development of personalities there, especially since posts cannot be displayed in chronological order (which is a regrettable limitation of the forum software).

    I agree, and this was my default position with David when he appeared here. As you saw from his first post, it was definitely not his default position, but I didn't allow that fact to affect my "clearing the slate". All that has transpired since then, however, has written quite a bit on the new slate that is unmistakably similar to the old slate. At this point, it would be foolish to ignore the old slate when the same patterns are being laid down.
  7. Chicodoodoo

    Chicodoodoo Truth-seeker

    In principle, I agree. You have suggested that Peter Joseph is using "propaganda style persuasion techniques" but without using deception or propaganda. So why does the style matter if the intent is to present the truth?

    Then you should be aware that capitalism and personal freedoms are two separate concepts. We have been brainwashed as Americans to believe they are integrated, when in fact, as demonstrated by our current implementation of capitalism, they are inversely related.

    Quite right.

    My understanding of a resource based economy, which is not very solid at the moment due to my poor recall of the Zeitgeist videos, is that planetary resources are not "owned" but are part of the common wealth. There would be no centralized control ("Big Brother") deciding the allocation or consumption of those resources. Instead, humanity as a whole would have to make those decisions, with input from all.

    As to your second point, without sociopaths in power, other systems would not necessarily all work just fine. All systems are not created equal. For example, one of the major problems of capitalism is the monopoly. It is an inherent flaw in the model that can only be solved by intervention from outside the system.
  8. Rose

    Rose InPHInet Rose Φ Administrator

    I agree completely with your first paragraph. But, I do not agree with the second paragraph:

    There is nothing discrediting, belittling and denigrating in having one's ideas compared to a young person who won an award for those ideas. That appears to me to be an ageist comment. As a recipient of a considerable amount of ageist remarks, I dislike them in either direction. I have no real information regarding previous history with David that might be influencing your responses to him. But, I hope we might try to wipe the slate clean, begin anew, and attempt to bestow the benefit of doubt taking what is said literally without consideration of past conflicts.
  9. Rose

    Rose InPHInet Rose Φ Administrator

    It is my opinion concepts and ideas containing pure truth do not require "propaganda style persuasion teqniques". Pure truth sells itself without the necessity of mind control methods designed to lure lulled minds into acceptance. When anyone uses mind control methods to sell me something, I always begin to consider why.

    Yes, I do have a preference for maintaining the personal freedoms of capitalism. I have thought about this extensively. Capitalism was not a system created for those who have abused that system. It is "ideally" a system that would work for small capitalistic entrepreneurship and proper personal ownership. You should not compare one completely "highly idealistic" model that would obviously realistically encounter it's own problems with another model that has been in place with ensuing problems revealed.

    You must also consider the older model in an equally "highly idealistic" manner, as if it were functioning as planned without its present problems, to compare apples with apples. The problems with either system are inevitably the people using it. I still prefer a model in which "All men are created equally with the inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I do not prefer a system in which those in control of the system itself own everything and control everyone removing the personal freedoms of individuals from the equation.

    What is the difference in a resource based economy and the control of "Big Brother", other than the assumption that there are no sociopath/psychopaths involved to cause any problems within it? If there were no sociopath/psychopaths other systems would work just fine.
  10. Chicodoodoo

    Chicodoodoo Truth-seeker

    Not just now. It always has been. Just like media can be brainwashing. Just like education can be brainwashing.

    Brainwashing, mind control, and programming are very similar in that they are attempts to control behavior. The primary intent is one of control. This is why sociopaths are so attracted to these techniques, because of their practical uses in achieving power and control over others. Intent is the key. When culture, media, or education are presented with the intent to control, then yes, they are brainwashing (or mind control or programming).

    I note how your post is oriented around discrediting, belittling, and denigrating me by placing me on the level of your child in a hierarchical ranking that sociopaths tend to use. Would your intent for doing this be one of control, to get me to behave in a manner more to your liking?
  11. david

    david Member

    Sorry Gema... The analogy was in reference to a model for the human behavoir and the actual behavoir. Do we first model the behavoir? or do we first act, and then create the model? or...the cart versus the horse, what drives what, if the cart has a motor?

    I find this important because what the post modern deconstruction people did in philosophy (Derrida, Focault, etc) was to analyze models for how people organized thought and action, then pulled them apart to show how they were constructed. Before that time thinkers like Kant, for example, looked at what we did and analyzed it, then created a system to explain it.

    Modern thinking has become very conscious of models, like the thinker you propose. Why is this? well if human thought tries to get its head around Quantum processes, the only way we can do this is to create models because quantum theory is based on every action having a series of possible outcomes. When we model this through computer technology, or through probability, predictive programming for an event to occur, or... in any epistemological way, then the model we use becomes as important as the actual information we seek...as a matter of fact the model and information often come together as one entity.

    This is the next step in our educational evolution in my opinion. From creating a system to explain human nature, to creating a fascimile, a model of human nature, to tear down all assumptions, in effect deconstructing our thoughtology...to eventually creating a predictive program for encapsulating the probability of all actions through an understanding of chance, probability, action/reaction....is where we hopefully are heading.
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  12. david

    david Member

    Culture is brainwashing now? lol you and my sixteen year old could have a bang up committee. I am sending a file, this is for Chic and anyone else who appeciates the idea of the grand oppressor. Seriously my son was in a film contest in Baltimore and this was the second place finish...he was competing as a sophomore against upper classman,
    Yes. Dreams plug me in and actually help problem solve and i have learned to problem solve with them. Its a kind of logic that is more Jungian, relational logic where we look at objects, images perhaps, and see a way they fit together, belong together. This logic seems independent of time and uses a symbolic vocabulary.
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  13. Chicodoodoo

    Chicodoodoo Truth-seeker

    You've got it, Gemma. I have never seen anyone in the forums get it with such clarity before. How did it happen for you? What do you think it will take for others to "get it" like you did?
  14. Chicodoodoo

    Chicodoodoo Truth-seeker

    I see two things here. First, "propaganda style persuasion techniques" that do not entail deliberate deception or the use of real propaganda could actually be legitimate and valid persuasion techniques. Second, do you see something wrong with promoting an anti-capitalist message? In other words, do you have a bias towards supporting a capitalist system? The reason I ask is that I myself had a long-time bias towards supporting capitalism, because my training and the culture I was raised in were both oriented to direct my thinking in that direction.

    My wife's grandfather was French, and his favorite expression about Americans was "Les sals capitalistes!" In English, "the dirty capitalists!" I always thought this opinion was quaint and cute, but misinformed. Not any more. His wisdom is becoming more and more evident to me with hindsight.
  15. Gemma

    Gemma Member

    Precisely. This is why the missing link that "shifted" greatly in my awareness for why exploitation, in all scenario's, is so rampant and commonly accepted, always traces back and defaults to the psychopathic [morally insane] logic mindset that humanity has been culturally conditioned and trapped into imitating - even when it goes completely against the grain of our natural empathic core. We, as humanity, have sold ourselves out to the morally insane. But as a collective humanity we have the power to change this dreadful mistake.

    I cannot see how any NEW construct can ever be successful without being coupled to a global paradigm shift away from psychopathic logic and into ethical logic. This is also what attracts me to activists like Peter Joseph; their intentions appear ethical, their innovative models have soundness, but they are missing a piece of the puzzle. I am keen to bring myself up to speed on this topic, then collaborate with Chico's extensive knowledge base, as I aim to bring this "missing puzzle piece" to their attention with a little help.

    (sorry this appears to parrot Chico's response somewhat but I was writing it at the same time. :))
  16. Chicodoodoo

    Chicodoodoo Truth-seeker

    Now you're talking! This is of critical importance. Every system, no matter how well designed or how good the intent, will be infiltrated, undermined, and corrupted by organized sociopaths if it benefits them! That's why the primary solution is to identify and disqualify sociopaths. Until humanity succeeds in doing that, no system, no matter how well designed, can succeed. The government of the United States of America is a classic example, going from idealistic principles to criminal corruption in less than 200 years. All of the well-intended "checks and balances" were of no use in stemming the cancer that organized sociopaths can deliver.

    Your spouse's great grandfather had a good idea with good intent. Organized sociopaths turned it completely around so that they reaped the benefits at the expense of the people. That's what sociopaths do. They are the root of nearly all human problems. I dream of removing the cancer that sociopaths represent just so I could see what kind of problems would then manifest in the body of humanity, absent the cancer of sociopathy.
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  17. Rose

    Rose InPHInet Rose Φ Administrator

    I am not saying Peter Joseph is deliberately trying to deceive or that he does not believe in what he is promoting. I have stated his writing utilizes propaganda style persuasion techniques to promote his anti-capitalism message.
  18. Chicodoodoo

    Chicodoodoo Truth-seeker

    Rose, that NLP video gives a good overview of general programming and brainwashing techniques, but it does not go into NLP (NeuroLinguistic Programming).

    At one point, I had the same question as Gemma about "What is NLP?" I did some research into it, and I found an amazing analysis of one of Obama's speeches where he uses many of the common NLP techniques. I documented what I learned here.

    Note that the information I link to in my post keeps getting censored, so I have had to repair the broken links in the past. I even had to copy the entire Obama speech analysis to my own server in order to assure a "permanent" link! Someone really doesn't want that one floating out there on the Internet. It's easy to see why...
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  19. Rose

    Rose InPHInet Rose Φ Administrator

    It is not necessarily an "either or" solution, Gemma.
    Not, necessarily Capitalism that is the problem.
    Starvation, war and homelessness is not necessarily the preference of non-sociopaths within a capitalistic system.

    I hope you will not think that one cannot possibly be objective because their mind contains historical information from somewhere...

    In 1825, my spouse's great grandfather attempted free distribution of communal lands to poor citizens who agreed to grow coffee when he served as the first head of state of Costa Rica. Coffee barons eventually took over and took great advantage of the system he put in place. What is to prevent this from happening in Joseph's scenario?

    My spouse's family holdings were ultimately nationalized. His grandmother, grandfather, and father were forced to flee from Costa Rica to America on a banana boat. His grandfather died in the great influenza epidemic in New York before the his wife and son could arrive.

  20. Chicodoodoo

    Chicodoodoo Truth-seeker

    Maybe not. Consider this:

    Suppose for thousands of years, human civilization has been led by sociopaths. Suppose those ruling sociopaths had an influence tens or hundreds of times greater than their proportion in the population (witness just the genetic influence of Genghis Khan). Suppose as a result, human society itself took on the characteristics of those sociopathic leaders. Suppose, due to their skills of deception, manipulation, secrecy, and control, the sociopaths influenced our collective minds to such an extent that we thought all this malaise and greed and domination and violence and tyranny and slavery was normal.

    I suggest we don't even need to "suppose". I suggest this scenario is the truth.

    That would mean society is indeed diseased. That would mean we have been brainwashed, mind controlled, and programmed. As such, we would not have the foundation to be objective.

    Speaking for myself, I can clearly see how I have been brainwashed, mind controlled, and programmed from the moment I was born. I can see how it took a dozen years for me to ease away from that comfortable and rewarded position. I can see that my learned objectivity was not objective at all, but heavily corrupted by society itself. And I can see how society is diseased because of the past and current effects of the ruling sociopaths.

    Can you see how modern capitalism itself is a corruption by ruling sociopaths of what was once a cooperative transaction among empathetic people?

    I don't think Peter Joseph is trying to deceive and manipulate us in a selfish pursuit of power and control. I think he is genuine. I can be fooled, of course, and if you think he is fooling us, I would love to hear your supporting evidence.
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  21. Rose

    Rose InPHInet Rose Φ Administrator

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  22. Rose

    Rose InPHInet Rose Φ Administrator

    ok, you quoted my post , and replied, " Yes, this is a sensitive ...." so I thought you were responding to me :):
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    Last edited: Jul 17, 2016
  23. Rose

    Rose InPHInet Rose Φ Administrator

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  24. Gemma

    Gemma Member

    I have absolutely no clue as to what you are trying to say here David? Could you please enlighten my cluelessness with a clearer approach.
  25. Gemma

    Gemma Member

    ??? I'm confused again here Rose re "propaganda tactics"?? My statement was a generalization and in all fairness could well have been viewed as being harsh when I look back on it. Harsh because there are actually amazing NEW concepts, innovations and inventions out there for replacing the old and contemporary, but due to our controlling capitalist influence they don't see the light of day. For example, alternative power, vehicles, transport systems, housing, etc, as well as social systems.

    What I was attempting to highlight was the difficult task of turning off everything we have been taught and conditioned with, blank slating the palette in front of us, then recreating a new design. Being a visionary this is how my mind works because I am constantly in a state of flux between the portal of my vision/imagination and now. This makes it difficult for me to communicate at times, but I am aware of this and so do try my best to clarify.
  26. Gemma

    Gemma Member

    My response was not personally directed at yours Rose - when I write my posts my minds conceptualization usually defaults to generalization - my bad, I should have made this clear.

    I am not familiar with neurolinguistic programming, apart from having heard the term over the years and a quick google search. Can you illuminate me more on this and if, as you say, Joseph is a master at it for propaganda do you not view his intentions as noble? Or do you just disagree with his solutions? I'm confused as to why Joseph's research would be categorized as propaganda and for what purpose?

    I am personally biased against capitalism in our current climate as I do not believe the "personal owners/controllers" of our resources are doing a very good job determining what resources are to be extracted and/or created, and how they are distributed/used. I also don't believe our system of government is equipped to make those decisions either when heavily influenced by capitalist stakeholders. Which is why my bias leans toward creating a new system which primarily deals with sustainable equality first, followed by individual sovereignty to choose to develop one's own "wealth" - wealth taking on a whole new meaning of course in this paradigm rather than being the coveting of resources.

    Of course, no one wants starvation, war, and homelessness, but not wanting those things do not go hand in hand with Joseph's solution.

    If that were true then we wouldn't have starvation, war, and homelessness when we have abundant resources, technology, and intelligence as a humanity to resolve these problems. Which is why the psychology of those in power that do want starvation, war and homelessness needs to be challenged as the proof is on the table and has been for a very long time.
  27. Rose

    Rose InPHInet Rose Φ Administrator

    David: "... I don't understand a lot of things and I don't need to have an explanation today. For example I have dreams that inevitably will display something the next day that was part of the dream...Is it just me being hyper vigilant? maybe? are dreams a portal, a view of the same present from a present future perspective? Maybe, do they tell me the future? I don't know."

    I found this interesting. We share this trait, David. What I refer to as "Vivid" dreams seldom steer wrong, although they may take weeks to become relevant.

    ~Forewarned is Forearmed~
  28. Rose

    Rose InPHInet Rose Φ Administrator

    Painting others who disagree with ideas as individuals with old school ideaologies and an inability to understand "new" concepts, etc. etc. etc, is at the top of the list of propaganda tactics. Although Joseph's socioeconomic ideals are packaged beautifully futuristically, nationalization (or now internationalization?) of resources is far from a new concept.
  29. Rose

    Rose InPHInet Rose Φ Administrator

    You are mixing apples and oranges here if your response had anything to do with my response? In my example the "plumber" and the "tap owner" are two functional areas of ONE human mind. So, YES, they must, by design, engage and agree since one determines the other. This is not a spiritual matter. It is a matter of how the human mind functions and why Joseph's propaganda-esque hypno-speak appeal is flawed. His suggestion is first that society is a disease, then that the reader as a being with a human mind, cannot possibly be objective. This is classic neurolinguistic programming designed to lull a listener into an agreeing receptive state to accept his anti-capitalistic message. I have seldom read any more blatant propagandized approach. Joseph is a master at it. Of course, no one wants starvation, war, and homelessness, but not wanting those things do not go hand in hand with Joseph's solution.
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  30. david

    david Member

    its funny when I read this post I had this vision of trying to decide whether to put the motorized cart before the horse, or let the horse have a go. LOl. It shows how our own sense of causation rears its ugly head. Whether we concepualize it or not, as I often tell my boys, the elites could never have predicted, or even had a predictive model for the internet. Youtube, GoFundMe and many of the other egalitarian practices in the internet are not perfect but they eliminate the Marxist middle man (capitalist) and when used properly have the potential to really create wealth that is not exploitive...at least not in the same way that it has been. So this modelling for a human paradigm with no distortions from a subjective nexus that sees itself as greater than the whole... in essence isn't that what a belief system is? is happening whether it is modeled or not!

    Incidently if you like this kind of approach Robert Humphries, retired Marine who passed away a few years ago, wrote extensively about how cultural bias creates violence and wartime conditions... in his mind culture replaces religion in predictive modeling regarding the effect of dehumanizing those who have different cultural assumptions... His example famously was the milk smelling, American... Vietnamese could not stand the smell that comes from our diet. Similar ideology really.