Sociopaths / Psychopaths

Indeed, Chico.
I hope you don't mind. Tonight I am moving the next episode of Liars and Criers, The Series, here. It is pertinent to sociopaths. Episode IV:

 

One veiled threat Stephen used against me several times that I can remember is posting "I'm not going to ban you." All his supporters were thinking "See how wise and tolerant Atticus is!" The real message he was sending me was "Lay off me or I will ban you." He knew it and I knew it, but his followers understood something completely different. Of course, I didn't lay off, and I continued to point out his sociopathic patterns publicly, and of course he banned me, exactly as he said he wouldn't. Once you understand that sociopaths are liars, cheats, and manipulators, you begin to see through their doublespeak.

 

THE VEILED THREAT

Another characteristic of sociopaths when threatened with exposure is the veiled threat. When sociopaths threaten, it is rarely overt. It usually starts as a subtle hint. Here are some recent examples that I have experienced from Shezbeth.

• "any further overt or implicit antagonism will not benefit your cause and may work to your detriment." -- (i.e. you are going to get hurt)
• "should you persist, [you] will be responded to in kind." -- (I will expose you)
• "<cracks his knuckles>" -- (prepare for your beating)
• "I'm not your opponent, but I WILL be if you maintain your opposition." -- (you ain't seen nothin' yet)
• "I wonder what it is that makes this issue such an issue that you would deliberately engage in a self-destructive practice." -- (stop hitting yourself)
• "... but I'll reserve those for later (or not at all, should you decide to choose your battles)." -- (you will be destroyed, so back down)

As you can see, the threat is often in the form of "If you know what's best for you, you will ..." This is, of course, a deception and manipulation, but then that's basically all sociopaths know how to do.

Threats come from the sociopath's tendency to accuse opponents of his own malfeasance, meaning to reflect back on the opponent what the sociopath is doing or feeling. So when the sociopath feels threatened, he tries to make his challenger feel the fear he is experiencing. That's why facing threats is part of the opening salvo of any engagement with a sociopath. Those threats are often disguised as "warnings". Yes, even the threats from a sociopath start off as chameleons, masquerading as something "for your own good". The usual message is "Don't mess with me, because I will bury you." This is a reflection of the narcissism, arrogance, and superiority complex sociopaths naturally exhibit.

I am reminded of UncleZook's trademark threat, initially expressed as a "jest", of rendering his opponents into "a bag of subatomic particles". You can see samples of that here ( 1 2 3 4 ).

Can you think of veiled threats that Charles/Atticus/Stephen/Houdini used against you? I wish the Atticus1 forum could still be accessed, as I could quote quite a few that he used against me.

 

The typical tools used in a clinical setting are laughable. They are questionnaires given to the sociopath with the expectation that the sociopath will answer honestly. Idiotic, I know, but that's by deliberate design. There are more reliable tools involving brain scans measuring the areas of the brain that respond to visual images flashed on a screen (engaging the subconscious), but those tests are more accurate, more expensive, and more suppressed. There are probably even better methods that are classified. Sociopaths control the research on psychological testing, and they keep the really accurate tools for their own use, such as identifying the best 'assets' that will best serve their criminal purposes.

So a clinical setting is not where you are going to get any useful results. Much better is observing sociopaths in real life when they aren't aware they are being observed. Of course, you need the background to understand what to look for, as well as an appropriate guiding philosophy.

Big problem, to be sure. This too is by deliberate design. In our current world of massive deception, if you want the job done right, you have to do it yourself.

Another good question. I can answer that for myself. You will have to do the same.

But of course. That's how it works.

 

So not to be a curmudgeon, but may I ask a few questions?

How does one clinically diagnose sociopathy?

Who is trusted to reach a diagnosis, and on what grounds?

Does anyone in this thread meet those grounds as to being trusted to reach that diagnosis?

Are you prepared to put up if you do, or shut up if you don't?

*cursties*

 

I agree. The Diebold revelation was pivotal. The practice of deception and manipulation is very much the domain of the sociopath. I am currently looking into David McGowan's take on serial killings from his book Programmed To Kill. The parallels between presidential elections and what we are sold about serial killings is eye-opening. It never occurred to me that many serial killings were just a facade to hide the paedophilia and Satanic sacrifices practiced by some of the most vile sociopaths on the planet. Just like, for a long time, it never occurred to me that elections were a complete con.

 

His father, Ron Paul, was clearly a non-sociopath. I studied Ron Paul for many years, before he was a known quantity, because of his economic acumen. His monetary common sense was so uncommon in Congress that he stood out like a sore thumb. Same for his ethics and support for the Constitution. He was the real deal, which is why he was mercilessly sabotaged by the system at every critical junction.

There was an incident when Ron Paul last ran for president (I think) that made it clear to me that Rand Paul had sold his soul to the devil, so to speak, in order to become a political player. I think Rand was persuaded to endorse another candidate over his father, a candidate who was clearly a bought-off insider, and I knew then that Rand Paul had sold out. I have found him to be duplicitous ever since.

Every election in my lifetime since JFK has been a con, and with this election, I have elected to drop out and stop participating, despite the brainwashing I was subjected to my entire life about the importance of voting. So I don't study the psychology of the candidates any more. There's almost no need. I already know from past study that Trump and Hillary are both sociopaths, with Hillary being the worst. Jeb Bush probably is one too, given his father's genes, though I don't waste any more time evaluating Bush offspring. They are a family of criminals, without a doubt.

 

Carry on Commodore,....

 

I think Shezbeth is especially qualified to know what he is talking about here, and we should pay close attention. I don't think he's lying in this instance.

I've learned from personal experience that we, as humans, tend to overestimate how "aware" we are of reality. We think we know exactly what we are doing and exactly what influence others are having on us. But sociopaths are particularly adept at affecting us (influencing us), as Shezbeth correctly points out. So can we be certain we are perfectly in control when interacting with a sociopath? Can we be sure we are not being influenced in ways we are not seeing? No, we can't. Sociopaths "know" this. They take advantage of our certainty, our emotions (especially empathy), and our psychology. Their psychology is adept at manipulating our psychology. So why do we fall for this?

Indeed. Sociopaths have learned that non-sociopaths have not learned. And they exploit that. They deceive and manipulate us. They fool us.

It is critical to understand, when dealing with a sociopath, that you can be fooled. Normal people typically have difficulty accepting that they can be fooled. Their egos won't let them accept it. But I have been fooled by sociopaths over and over again. The conclusion I reach is not that I'm a fool, but that sociopaths are very good at fooling people. And they are. It's what they do. That's why I often write "I can be fooled." I recognize the reality of the interplay between sociopaths and non-sociopaths. I recognize that I am a non-sociopath, and as a result, sociopaths can fool me. That's the bad news, and it applies to all of us "normal" people.

The good news is that, by realizing this, I am getting better and quicker at catching the sociopaths who fool me.

 

Socio-/psycho-paths are particularly adept at interacting in a manner that affects an individual on an emotional/extatic level. There is little difference between a rush of endorphins and a shot of heroine (except in magnitude) and the comparison could be further indicated as far as the 'How can we like something that's bad for us?'.

The simplest answer to that question then is "Because we have not learned,".

 

One of the characteristics of sociopaths is that they are charming. We like them. We stinkin' LIKE them!

How can we like something that is bad for us?

If you know anything about my forum history, you might know I had a forum "friend" named AndyWight. I liked him. He was quite the character. He was clever. He was surprisingly observant. He could be amusingly irreverent. He used the truth as a weapon. He was also good at telling you what you wanted to hear. He was, you might say, supportive. He was almost like a loyal sidekick. And then, when I had no reason to expect it, seemingly out of the blue, he put the knife in. He saw his golden opportunity. AndyWight wanted the distinction, the recognition, the prestige, of bringing down the "mighty" Chicodoodoo, "slayer of forums", the well-known shining knight of Truth. Chico had LIED, AndyWight proclaimed, and I maneuvered him into it via a most clever trap! Now we must take him down! And I, the mighty AndyWight, his long-time sidekick, will take his respected place!

Sound familiar?

How many people had a forum "friend" named Charles/Atticus/Stephen/Houdini or whatever name he was using? You liked him. He was quite the character. He was clever. He was surprisingly observant. He could be amusingly irreverent. He used the truth as a weapon. He was also good at telling you what you wanted to hear. He was, you might say, supportive. He was almost like a loyal sidekick. And then, when you had no reason to expect it, seemingly out of the blue, he put the knife in.

What the hell is wrong with us? Why do we like these sociopaths? Why do we trust them? Why do we feel they are our friends?

How do we protect ourselves from them?

 

I imagine you feel like having a rest, but I'm going to suggest that school is not over. The teachers will change, the lessons will change, the agendas will change, your beliefs will change, and your receptiveness will change. But this universe is going to keep on serving up opportunities for learning. You can refuse them, of course. You can be selective, of course. But there is no end, as far as I can see.

I think that's a good thing.

 

In hindsight, I'm sure you can easily see that these are CONTROL mechanisms that sociopaths use.
"You listen to me. I do the talking, you do the listening. You are not to talk amongst yourselves behind my back."

And lies. Always lots of lies. Lying is the most expeditious way for sociopaths to control people.

The first step of the cure is detaching the parasite from your body (or in this case, your mind).

 

That is the truth as I currently know it. No one owns the truth. You are welcome to it.

I caught a lot of flak from Nexus members when I went over to Atticus1 to potentially contribute. I did so because I was genuinely onboard with the mission statement of the Atticus1 website. I think most Nexus members believed Stephen was a dangerous con-artist, like Bill Ryan, and that's why I caught so much flak. In hindsight, they were essentially right. Because of the Atticus1 mission statement and the group of 18, I wanted to give Stephen (and group) the benefit of the doubt and see if he was serious. Turned out he wasn't, and the 18 were clearly following his lead. I thought I had an important perspective to help correct the clearly visible flaws in the developing plan there, but I was brushed off like an irritant. I think this was because to Stephen, I was an irritant, one that could potentially derail his agenda. He figured that out right away when I wouldn't back-channel with him, which he wanted to do as soon as I joined. I insisted that we keep all communications public, because I knew sociopaths cannot succeed that way. They work their main magic one-on-one behind closed doors.

Yes, there's a lot to be said. I've been exploring this very idea in my home forum recently. I've come to realize that when sociopaths lead a group, they set the policy, they color the mindset, they shape the ethics, and the end result is that the whole group acts sociopathic, even though a large majority of that group is NOT sociopathic! You need look no further than the United States for evidence. We are a country of mostly good people, yet "America" (meaning our government led by sociopaths) regularly invades other sovereign nations for false reasons, occupies them, loots them, rapes them, and then claims to have saved them with democracy when no democracy is present there or even here. To the peoples of those countries, and even to neutral observers, we are indeed the Great Satan. Yet most Americans can't see it, having been tricked by their leaders into believing they are doing the right thing.

I believe the same thing happened at Atticus1. It also happened at Nexus (now apparently defunct), and it happens in regular cycles at Avalon. If I'm wrong, I invite others to set me straight.

 

that is awesome! can i use that quote ? lol

so in the spirit of learning i would like to share a very unique experience and perspective

ill try to get to the point

so i had real friends in the 18 and on team nexus that i talked to on a daily basis
i never had a problem with either group , both groups ended up always being suspicious of me even thou i tried my best not to be in the middle of the bs

the fucked part is most of the people were from the same group in a room on irc but now 2

(why did they get caught up wen some on drew an imaginary line between them?)
(are we compelled to be caught up in the moment by our own nature some times ?)

and now it got me thinking

is there any thing to be said about sociopathic behavior in the group mentality ?

 

Illuminating! Thank you, Shadowself!

Before I explain why, let me say the following. I am not here to make friends, or to make enemies, though I will surely do both (if memory serves). I am not here to gain followers either. I am here to learn. I am here to share what I learn. And I am here to expose lies and uncover truths. I may not succeed at doing these things, but that is my fundamental purpose. When I first started in the forums 5 years ago, at Avalon, I was just a learner. What I quickly learned is that Avalon was not a gathering of enlightened people, but a den of vipers. (In reality, it's some of both.) One of the first things I witnessed in real time was a member who was correctly standing up for his right to free speech. Bill Ryan promptly banned him. The hypocrisy gnawed at me. I saw other examples of that same hypocrisy. Eventually I rebelled against it and tried to expose it. And Bill Ryan banned me, naturally.

The truth was with you, and Stephen essentially lied. "Followers" is the correct word. That's exactly what the 18 and many others were doing -- following. Stephen was like the Pied Piper, playing the music necessary to lead the rats wherever he desired. But Stephen described all the rats as his "friends". They weren't, not to him anyway. They were rats to him. They were objects to be manipulated, pieces on the game board, stepping stones to greater power and control for Stephen. By calling them "friends", Stephen was effectively using their own empathy against them. Normal people have a normal understanding of what friends are. Sociopaths know that and use it to their advantage. They play on your emotions. If they are starting to lose control of you, you will hear them say, "I thought we were friends." Your empathy makes you recall what you felt like when a friend betrayed you, and you project that onto the sociopath, imagining that they feel hurt. They don't feel hurt. It's just a ploy. They are manipulating you. That's the difference between sociopaths and non-sociopaths. It is the difference between deceptive and genuine.

That's not exactly right. I am still friendly with him, as I try to be with everyone, but he is not really my friend. I now know not to follow him. If he tries to lead me anywhere, my guard is up. With a real friend, my guard wouldn't be up. I would be open, genuine, and vulnerable. But to be that way with a sociopath is to be manipulated and controlled. It's inevitable, because that is the dynamic between sociopaths and normal people when normal people are unaware.

 

I have a friend I've known for maybe six years. He is well known and seems to know everyone in town, as he deals with a vast array of people one-on-one in his day job. At night, he also works as an entertainer and is quite good at it. He is amazingly well informed about esoteric and alternate knowledge, and that was the common ground that initially drew us together. He was single and lived alone with a dog, but maybe a year ago he came by my house and introduced me to his new steady girlfriend, a woman he had been friends with in high school 30 years ago. She was a very pleasant woman, and I remember thinking how lucky he was to have found her.

A few months later, I stopped at his house to visit, but he was not home from work yet. She was there and said he would be home soon, so I should stay and wait. We chatted, and she started telling me that she was having problems with him and didn't know what to do or who to turn to. Since I was one of the friends he respected the most, she decided to query me to see if I could give her some insight into his puzzling behavior. What I heard in the next half-hour was a complete shock! As she listed the problem behaviors, I couldn't help but remark for nearly every one "That's how a sociopath behaves." Behind closed doors, my friend was apparently a sociopath, and I had never had an inkling that he was one!

After that, I started observing him more carefully, and I heard more stories from his girlfriend. Everything continued to confirm that he was a sociopath. Eventually, they asked me to informally "counsel" them, and I did, hoping to save their relationship. But the conclusion based on what I heard was unavoidable -- they were mismatched. He was indeed a sociopath (though I didn't tell him that), and she was in an abusive relationship that she was finding increasingly intolerable. The final straw for her was when an argument got physical and he assaulted her. Though she was essentially "addicted" to him and felt she couldn't leave, she realized where the pattern was leading and finally understood she would end up either a slave or dead. For his part, he was afraid a police report for assault would put his work in jeopardy and impact his income. So I convinced them both that it would be to their mutual benefit to call it quits, and they both agreed.

He's still my friend, and there is rarely any sign of sociopathy in his dealings with me. But I know this is just "the mask" sociopaths use to fit into the world of normal people. If it hadn't been for his girlfriend being at wit's end, I might have never known his true character. As for the girlfriend, I learned she had a history of being attracted to charming, controlling, "explosive" men. She was coming out of a long marriage to the only calm, caring, and unabusive man she had ever known, which was now just too humdrum for her. It was sad, really, that each was crippled by things outside their control. The only good that came out of it was that I had a better understanding of the human condition. And, that both of them got out of a disastrous relationship, of course!

 

Why?

Why do sociopaths succeed? Why do they climb the hierarchy and become our leaders? Why is Bill Clinton still a political player? Why isn't he in jail serving a life term? Why is Bill Ryan still lording over hundreds of faithful, long-term Avalon members? Why do the women stand in line to be his "sweetheart" when every one of them is used, abused, and discarded? Why is it the same with Bill Clinton, who is supposedly married to Hillary? Why does Atticus/Houdini mesmerize his followers with absurd tales of pencils up his nether regions?

There are reasons for these things. They are the same reasons con-artists and countless "suckers" find each other. There is an interplay of human psychology between predator and prey. The prime instrument used by the predators is deception. The prime instrument used by the prey is trust. And that's how the dance begins. We all know how it ends.

Or do we?

There is a website called psychopathfree.com full of people who have been "run through the mill", meaning ground up into tiny bits, by psychopaths (Note: psychopaths and sociopaths are essentially the same thing). There is no shortage of victims posting at that site, and they all have similar experiences. How is it that they didn't know how their "dance with the devil" would end?

The answer, of course, is that they didn't know they were dancing with the devil. They were tricked.

Sound familiar?

 

Then I doubt it's a stretch to say you've been dealing with sociopaths.

When sociopaths get together for a little meeting (or a little theater), they typically don't invite any non-sociopaths, unless those non-sociopaths are unquestionably well-controlled.

But yes, that conversation is a "Clash of the Titans" among forum sociopaths. It's a classic, very educational, and worthy of study if you wish to better understand what sociopaths are like.

I would also add that understanding sociopaths is critical to understanding the human world. They lead us, they set policy, and they control our demise. That applies to the microcosm of the forums and the macrocosm of the international arena. And therein lies the problem humanity must eventually solve. Failure to solve it means slavery at best, extinction at worst.

 

I pose the question: How many sociopaths are in this conversation?

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